00:00:17 - Good evening. The two guests of
our debate tonight are József Antall,
President of the Hungarian Democratic
00:00:24 Forum and János Kiss, Acting President
of the Alliance of Free Democrats.
00:00:28 First of all, a lot of people
were wondering why yesterday's
debate programme was cancelled.
00:00:33 Because the participants in today's
debate agreed that instead of
their two debates, which would have
00:00:38 been on Tuesday and Thursday,
only once, would they
argue with each other, tonight.
00:00:43 That's why we're informing you that
there will be no show here tomorrow.
Next time there will be
00:00:49 a final debate on Friday night
before the current elections.
00:00:53 The guests of our show tonight have
agreed that the topics of
00:00:57 the debate will be foreign and internal
politics, political issues in general,
and, of course, we have also operated the
00:01:03 usual telephone answering machines.
Fortunately, we don't have to use
a stopwatch on the show today.
00:01:10 Gentlemen,
during the election campaign there
00:01:13 were quite negative phenomena.
At times, emotions got out of control,
or anger got out of control.
00:01:20 I suppose it's partly unusual for us,
but it doesn't necessarily have
to be part of an election.
00:01:26 What you, your parties, are planning
to do to make the days ahead,
the end of the campaign, in a better
00:01:33 or more peaceful atmosphere.
And especially so that after
the elections there should be
00:01:37 not only peace in form but in essence as well.
- I believe that it is in
00:01:42 the interests of both parties,
00:01:48 and also the other parties and the country,
00:01:54 that the election campaign
should not get out of hand,
00:02:00 both parties and, in my opinion,
the other parties agree that
00:02:06 it is necessary to put
an end to slanderous clais,
00:02:11 to end all the steps that could
harm the participants either humanly
00:02:18 or personally, and I believe
that both parties should strive
00:02:24 to convince their own sympathizers
and convince their own members.
00:02:30 The Hungarian Democratic Forum drew
the attention of its local bodies,
00:02:37 and I appeal to all those
who are sympathetic to us
00:02:44 and to all our members,
and I call on them to avoid the
00:02:52 methods of electoral struggles that
are not suitable for a European
00:02:58 democratic electoral struggle.
It is true that the natural
consequence of the electoral struggle
00:03:05 is that, in competition, the parties
stand up against each other, it is
00:03:10 also true that they do everything
they can to defeat each other.
00:03:16 And there are, of course,
many ways to do that. However,
00:03:21 I believe that we agree that it must be
00:03:27 ended that slanderous claims and insults occur,
not to mention assaults, which,
00:03:36 fortunately, have rarely come up.
This is not just about how the two
00:03:44 parties or the other parties feel,
which is why yesterday we signed an
00:03:51 agreement on joint action against the
escalation of the electoral battle,
00:03:57 but it also sheds a bad light on the country as a whole,
00:04:02 if voices or phenomena that are
difficult to match with democracy are
00:04:09 repeated in the electoral struggle.
00:04:15 Moreover, after the elections,
people need to sit down at a table,
00:04:23 political opponents, as we are
sitting next to each other now,
00:04:30 or as we have already sat down
in various political programmes,
00:04:37 and it is right to maintain
a relationship and attitude
00:04:43 between political parties,
whether they are opponents or rivals,
or representatives of
00:04:51 allied political parties,
so that they can debate calmly
00:04:57 later in the parliamentary assembly.
I think that's the goal
00:05:03 to achieve this.
If we can't achieve that,
it was a waste of time
00:05:09 to eliminate the one-party system.
- János Kiss. I don't think
00:05:14 this is the place for it,
00:05:18 and this isn't the moment
to discuss the responsibility
00:05:25 of the election campaign.
It is a fact that the election
00:05:30 campaign has become very harsh and it
is a fact that it affects not only
00:05:36 the political parties involved in it,
mainly the two
most important parties,
00:05:41 the Hungarian Democratic Forum and
the Alliance of Free Democrats,
but it is a very serious concern
00:05:47 for the population of the country,
its electoral citizens, the public,
and something has to happen here.
00:05:53 Therefore, the Free Democrats were
very pleased that Fidesz initiated
last week that the representatives
00:06:00 of the six parliamentary parties
should meet and agree to settle
00:06:05 the ethics of the election campaign,
and we are very happy that
00:06:11 the agreement was reached.
I am very pleased that the President
00:06:15 of the Hungarian Democratic Forum,
Mr.József Antall, has called on the
members and organisations of the
00:06:21 Forum to comply with the European
standards of the election campaign
in the publicity of television,
00:06:27 and I can promise you that we
will also strive to do the same.
00:06:33 Let me add one more thing to this.
I consider that it is not only
00:06:39 the parties competing with each
other that have to do with it,
00:06:45 but also the voters themselves.
I think it is very important
00:06:50 for voters to distinguish between
what a party represents in fact and
00:06:56 what they rumourscan be heard and read about it.
I think it is very important
00:07:01 that you shouldn't judge on the candidates or leaders of
00:07:06 the parties based on what slanderous
pamphlets say about them,
but on the basis of what you
00:07:12 can find out directly about them.
I believe that today we can
00:07:17 make up for all this slander,
this vast amount of filth that has
00:07:23 been spilled on the most diverse
candidates or political leaders,
00:07:28 but still it can be shaken off,
we can shake it off,
00:07:33 if in the voters, as I trust,
there is wisdom to push
00:07:39 aside these slanderous documents,
to ignore them,
and to care only about one thing,
00:07:46 what the parties between which
they must choose are representing.
00:07:52 - In your answers
both of you mentioned
the words Europe and European.
00:07:59 And I think that both parties are
proclaiming, together with all the other
00:08:03 parties, that Hungary
must join Europe and return to Europe.
00:08:09 What is the essence of your conceptions,
if you like, how do they
00:08:15 differ, given the Europe
you want to rely on,
00:08:20 how do you want to return to Europe, who
are your allies in this regard?
00:08:27 And how do you see the future of this
Central and Eastern European region?
- Well, I can start,
00:08:33 though I think it would be
better if we took turns talking.
00:08:39 - Well, that's what I suggest.
- So I have to
00:08:42 ask János Kiss to start.
- I don't want to trigger confusion,
00:08:47 so I'm gonna start,
but for now, just briefly,
and I'm gonna take it back...
00:08:53 - On the same subject.
- On the same subject.
I believe that,
00:08:58 when returning to Europe,
this must be stated, and thus very
00:09:05 well linked to the previous issue,
that it is not necessary for
00:09:12 political parties, for example,
to say that one wants to return
00:09:18 to Europe less than the other.
So this is also part of the
00:09:27 electoral ethics, in my opinion,
that we are both aware that both
00:09:34 political parties are obviously in
favour of catching - up with Europe.
00:09:40 And neither of the parties
have any ambitions against this,
00:09:45
00:09:58 and we both probably want to
adapt to European party structures.
It follows that,
00:10:06 in the spirit of electoral ethics,
we should not question each
00:10:12 other in that we are both in
favour of European catch-up.
00:10:19 In the spirit of this,
and I am sure that I can say this,
00:10:24 I am convinced that the Alliance
of Free Democrats wants to
do politics and adapt to a
00:10:30 European party structure in the
future as a European party,
obviously not in the same way as we do,
00:10:36 because then why would we be
different parties? But let's
00:10:41 not doubt that from each other.
- Then János Kiss will tell
you the party structure, right?
00:10:49 - I haven't thought of
that all of a sudden,
I would like to say that at this point
00:10:54 I agree perfectly with József Antall.
I think that catching up with Europe
00:11:00 obviously means two different things.
There is a foreign policy dimension,
00:11:04 and there is an internal
politicy dimension,
and what we mean by it is that within
00:11:10 Hungary a European type of democratic
system must be consolidated, and we
will certainly talk about it later.
00:11:18 The foreign policy aspect of the
issue is, obviously related to the
00:11:23 fact that the power that Hungary was
involved in against Hungary's will,
00:11:28 is disintegrating,
and is essentially dissolved,
but as a result the whole European
00:11:34 system has also been dissolved,
Europe's division is over,
00:11:39 and it is clear that the
separation between NATO and the
00:11:44 Warsaw Treaty is temporary.
Here a new European system will be
00:11:49 created, and the question is whether
we will be able to get involved
00:11:54 and how.
I think it must be made
00:12:00 clear that for our region,
this situation involves enormous
opportunities, but also great dangers.
00:12:07 Obviously, the opportunity lies in
joining Europe, the danger is that
this region may split into countries
00:12:15 that can catch up with Europe and
those that slip back into a Balkanic
00:12:22 state that characterized part of
this region before World War I.
00:12:29 I think that for Hungary,
in the very near future,
the critical question,
00:12:34 which will decide whether we can
catch up with Europe or we
00:12:40 will be one of the countries that will
sink back into the Balkanic swamp,
00:12:45 will be whether the country will
succeed in having a sound government
and a solid parliament, which we
00:12:52 will definitely have to talk about.
But there is another problem that we
00:12:57 have to deal with in the same way.
It is not enough for us to
00:13:01 catch up with Europe ourselves,
while other parts of the region,
for example Romania,
00:13:07 where more than two million,
more than two and a half
00:13:11 million Hungarians live,
are sinking back to Balkanic conditions.
We have a primary interest
00:13:18 in making the region as a whole
part of European integration,
00:13:23 and the standards that are now binding
in Western Europe and which the
00:13:29 community of Western European states
enforces against each other, should also be
00:13:34 binding and enforceable in Romania,
and, in general in neighbouring states.
00:13:40 - Well, I think that the basic
question, the first question,
00:13:45 how to return to Europa and the degree of that,
I believe that John has not
00:13:51 yet indicated how the Alliance of
Free Democrats wishes to be
00:13:57 connected to West European party structures, I do not know,
perhaps we can change the order
00:14:03 by talking about this particular
general foreign policy position.
- Is János Kiss willing to say,
00:14:09 after all, what forces they want to
rely on first? I guess after that...
- You're welcome.
00:14:16 - The Alliance of Free Democrats,
above all, has good relations
00:14:23 with the European liberal parties
and several social democratic
00:14:30 parties and with the governments in
which such parties are present.
00:14:39 These relations will be
mobilized after the elections,
either as part of the majority
00:14:45 of the government or as part of
the opposition, in order to resolve
Hungary's situation in Europe.
00:14:54 I would like to add that,
in my opinion,
Hungary has no interest in linking
00:15:02 the possibility of connecting to
Europe to a specific country or
00:15:08 a limited group of countries.
It is in Hungary's interest that its
00:15:15 international relations develop on a
wide scale, so that its supporters
00:15:20 are present on all the poles
of the European power system.
00:15:26 Obviously, we will have a very
important partner in Germany,
00:15:31 but it is very important that France,
Italy, Great Britain, the United States
00:15:37 outside Europe belong here,
but I have to mention the factor that
00:15:43 is not mentioned nowadays when
talking about the future of Hungary,
00:15:48 and that is Russia.
- I still have to make the
00:15:53 observation that these social
democrats and liberal parties
are present in many places,
00:15:58 but they are not allies everywhere.
"There is no doubt about that,
00:16:02 but it is also true that in
many places in Western Europe,
such alliences have been established,
00:16:08 some are very strong in Denmark,
for example, and social-libera
parties such as
00:16:14 the Alliance of Free Democrats are being formed,
it can be said that the future
is around liberalism and social
00:16:20 democracy in Western Europe,
and in this area there
will also be a significant
00:16:24 realignment in our judgment.
I'm not sure that's what Dr.
00:16:28 Antal thinks.
- Of course I don't have
00:16:32 exactly the same opinion.
I would like to say that,
00:16:38 in our view, there is a
great need for social democracy,
00:16:44 and one of the great problems
of Hungarian political life is the
00:16:51 disappearance of the Social Democratic
Party, at least in the parliament,
00:16:57 by collectiong less than 4% of the votes.
It is obvious that the potential
00:17:04 social democratic voters remained in or
joined the Hungarian Socialist Party,
00:17:09 and in part the Alliance
of Free Democrats,
whose social democratic character has also been stressed by
00:17:16 János Kiss.
This may change later in
00:17:22 the Hungarian political structure,
as political movements and
reorganizations can be expected on
00:17:29 all sides, but it must be
accepted as a fact that today
00:17:36 the Allience of Free Democrats,
00:17:42 is the partner party of social democratic and liberal movements.
Of course, this is not entirely rigid,
00:17:49 because one feature of the
liberal center in France, for example, is that
00:17:56 Christian democrats,
belong to this groupe.
So, for instance,
00:18:05 we also have such partnerships.
Giscard d'Estaing arrives tomorrow,
00:18:12 for example,
who is the head of the center,
00:18:17 where the Christian Democratic Party
belongs to as well.
00:18:23 - Here is the President of the Liberal
Group in the European Parliament,
and we are also in touch
00:18:29 with him in this sense.
However, our main reference point in
00:18:34 European partnership is the Christian
democracy ,
00:18:40 namely Christian democrats in Italy,
Austria, People's Party, in Germany,
00:18:46 CDU, CSU, et cetera.
And we are in contact with
00:18:52 conservative and certain liberal parties
00:18:59 from France, Chirac’s party e.g.,
through England to Scandinavia,
00:19:04 which are together with Christian democratic
parties in the European Democrat Union
00:19:11 So it can be said that it is
a fortunate trend in Hungarian
00:19:17 political life
that both centre-left and centre-right
00:19:23 new formations are connected
00:19:28 to their European counerparts.
The Independent Smallholders Party (Kisgazda Párt)
and the Christian Democratic People's Party
00:19:35 share a similar
political philosophy with
the Hungarian Democratic Forum,
00:19:42 regardless of their
previous political connections
at local level,
00:19:49 which is manifested in the fact that
00:19:55 they are in the same branch
in the European party system.
00:20:03 After the elections,
Hungarian parties will obviously occupy
00:20:08 their positions in the Hungaria
political system as it was said above.
00:20:15 I think it is very important,
because it is obvious that Europe,
00:20:21 after the Second World War,
and it is indeed a very important
00:20:26 for Central Europe, was dominated
by social democratic
00:20:31 and Christian democratic parties
together with liberal movements
00:20:38 playing the role of tipping the scales
00:20:42 So I consider this to be a fortunate
development in Hungarian politics,
00:20:47 that we are moving in this direction,
which may not be attractive to many,
00:21:00 why the opposition is not united.
So, of course, this has its drawbacks,
00:21:06 but there are things in which
we are ahead of other countries
00:21:12 leaving socialism, where, for example,
there are more effective,
greater mass movements in Poland,
00:21:19 but we are, in a sense,
ahead of the development of a
00:21:25 party framework adapted to Europe.
- In your personal foreign policy
00:21:29 relations system or thinking,
how privileged is this Italian and,
especially, German connection.
00:21:35 - It's not more privileged than it is
in the country's relationship system.
00:21:43 We, of course, consider that,
the economic relationship with the
00:21:52 Federal Republic of Germany is
00:22:00 extremely important for Hungary.
We have a close relationship
00:22:06 with Chancellor Kohl, of course,
as with other Christian democrats.
00:22:13 We are in close contact with the
Italians, but we are equally close
00:22:20 to the French, Chirac,
or the Giscard d'Estaings,
00:22:26 who are coming now, and,
of course, to smaller states like
00:22:32 the Netherlands, and similarly,
the English and American relations
00:22:37 are, in my opinion, very solid.
00:22:44 I would like to add that we,
as believers in European unity,
00:22:51 have been part of the European
unity movement from the beginning,
00:22:57
00:23:09 and all other European organisations.
I would also like to stress that
00:23:16 when we talk about European unity,
we would not be in favour
00:23:21 of a European unity that is
opposed to North America.
So a Europe-centric
00:23:28 European integration, which would
stands against North America as a
00:23:34 distinctive alternative,
would be unacceptable to us
and we have often said that
00:23:42 in America and at home as well.
So we feel the Atlantic idea is
00:23:50 an important cohesion force,
because two world wars proved
00:23:56 that,regardless of the fact on which sides
countries took positions,
North America and Europe
00:24:03 are inseparable from each other.
As a result, a new Europe, and
00:24:09 it is assumed that American presence
is still needed for a long time,
00:24:15 and the United States can play a
very positive role. Including
00:24:22 the Central European region,
where, of course,
after the reduction and withdrawal
00:24:28 of Soviet political influence,
there is a risk of vacuum,
00:24:34 although I do not think that would
arise more seriously. Here, too,
00:24:41 we consider it important to have a
balanced presence of Western Europe in our region,
00:24:47 including, of course, France,
England, and, in addition,
a growing North American, interest here.
00:24:53 It had harmful consequences
that during
00:24:59 and after World War II,
00:25:04 the Anglo-Saxon powers showed so
little interest in Central Europe,
00:25:11 and I believe that this is a special
tragedy that the
00:25:17 great maritime powers didn’t show much
interest in Central Europe
for a very long time,
00:25:23 and they have always resented us
when we slipped into power systems
00:25:29 that we really didn't want to do.
- Metaphorically speaking,
it's time for that.
00:25:36 I think we had better move on
from foreign policy, but if you wish,
00:25:39 you should respond to that.
- No, you can move on.
00:25:42 - Well, you're gonna have to
start answering now. I think
00:25:48 that one of the basic conditions
for joining all kinds of Europe
is a solid democracy in Hungary.
00:25:56 These elections are the first
free elections after 43 years,
00:26:00 which ultimately result
in a legitimate system.
But the legitimacy of a system in
00:26:06 itself does not mean that there
is an unconditional democracy.
So beyond the laws and democracy,
00:26:12 beyond the democracy set out in
the laws, how do you see the
guarantees or possibilities of
00:26:19 making a real democracy in Hungary?
- What I think first of all is, and it
00:26:24 must be clear, is that democracy does
not simply mean that representatives
of several parties are sitting
00:26:31 in the parliament and that the
majority governs. Democracy also
00:26:36 requires that the minority,
as a parliamentary opposition
00:26:42 as minorities outside the parliament,
have strong rights that guarantee
00:26:48 that the opposition is not a
peripheral partner in political life,
00:26:55 but is a part of power
and can influence power, and it
is in a position to
00:27:02 replace the governing party
if people so wish.
00:27:09 In Hungary - we
know an example of parliament,
00:27:14 e.g. between the two world wars,
where there wasn’t a strong opposition,
00:27:19 the social democrats,
the small holders
were unable to have
00:27:26 real political influence.
The rights and privileges of the
00:27:30 opposition must be firmly enshrined
in the new Hungarian Parliament.
00:27:35 That's one of the things we consider
necessary. At the same time,
00:27:42 it is necessary that the press
and above all
00:27:47 mass media, television, radio
should be independent of
all kinds of party domination,
00:27:53 including the governing parties,
so that the situation that
existed during the reign of the
00:28:00 Communist Party will not recur,
namely that the governing party determines
what can appear on television,
00:28:06 what can be heard on the radio,
and clashes of opinions
00:28:11 simply do not appear.
We believe that rules must
00:28:17 be made that simply make
it impossible for parties to
00:28:24 influence television and radio.
We have our ideas about this and
00:28:30 we will present media a bill
to the Parliament.
00:28:35 In addition to such political
conditions, of course,
00:28:40 it is also necessary to establish,
so to say, a psychological environment
00:28:48 in which democracy can function.
In essence, it means that
00:28:54 people have to accept that
there are several parties indeed,
00:28:59 and the members of the majority
party need to uderstand
00:29:06 that their majority relies
on just a few percent of the votes,
and the rivalling minority party
00:29:13 is also supported by millions of people,
so political coexistence
00:29:20 of the parties is the only way.
It's not a matter of rules,
it's not a matter of laws,
00:29:27 it's a question of practice that
needs to be developed, and that's
where I think political parties
00:29:34 have an incredible responsibility.
There is simply no serious
tradition in Hungary,
00:29:39 and in fact there is no tradition
in the lives of today's generations
00:29:46 that a country's public opinion is
firmly divided among several parties,
00:29:51 that live together on a
permanent basis, and are able to
00:29:57 acknowledge that different world views,
political ideals,
lifestyles
00:30:03 and cultural patterns exist in the country,
which also have their share of
00:30:09 influence and power.
I think that's what's
00:30:13 supposed to happen here.
- I must point out two things.: One is,
00:30:17 what gives a parliamentary opposition
the democratic role and potential
in a case
00:30:24 - they represent quite a small minority
in Parliament against
a particular government coalition,
00:30:31 so let's say less than 20 percent.
The second is how much it can be expected
00:30:37 that any Hungarian parliamentary
opposition should be a responsible
opposition in the positive sense of
00:30:42 the word, in circumstances when the country
and its government and parliamentary
00:30:48 majority are limited in manoeuvring
capacity by hard conditions,
so in such a situation how can it be achieved
00:30:53 that the opposition shouldn’t ride
the wave of people’s patience running out.
- The two questions are
00:30:58 very far apart, I think.
You have to answer separately.
00:31:03 My answer to the first question
would be to maintain certain
00:31:08 types of parliamentary prerogatives
for a relatively small minority,
to ensure that representatives of
00:31:15 opposition parties, for example,
be the heads of important
parliamentary committees.
00:31:22 I am just saying it as an example,
and I believe that this
condition must be met even if
00:31:29 the opposition represents only 20
percent in the Parliament. Similarly,
I believe that it is necessary to
00:31:34 ensure that even if it is only 20%,
the opposition has the right to
hold state positions which are not
00:31:41 government offices, for example,
if the Hungarian National Bank
is separated from the government
00:31:46 and the President of the National
Bank is elected by the Parliament,
it is not right, in my view,
00:31:53 to elect the President of the
Bank in such a way, although it is
legally possible, that the minority
00:31:59 may not have a say in this.
But I've just mentioned it as an example.
So I think that a 20-percent minority
00:32:07 can also be granted rights that
make it a factor in the Parliament,
00:32:11 even if it has only 20 percent.
With regard to the other question,
00:32:17 what guarantees that this
opposition will behave responsibly,
I can answer that there are
00:32:23 no legal guarantees for this.
There are only political
00:32:27 guarantees.
It depends on the parties
00:32:31 that make up the opposition.
On my behalf, I can say that,
00:32:37 although I do not know if we are
sitting and talking at this table in
00:32:43 10 days or 20 days' time, whether
we will be here then as a representative of
00:32:48 the future opposition's leading party,
or as a participant in government
coalition negotiations. It is certain
00:32:55 that the Alliance of Free Democrats,
if it becomes an opposition party,
00:33:00 will be a responsible party.
And I believe that it
00:33:05 is not just a promise,
but I can refer to political
00:33:10 experiences that support this.
The Alliance of Free Democrats
00:33:15 is known as a relentlessly
radical party, and indeed,
00:33:19 as far as the issue of the
change of regime is concerned,
00:33:25 we were adamant,
we did not know any compromise, and
00:33:30 we went much further than anyone else.
At the same time, however,
00:33:37 the Alliance of Free Democrats stated
that the Hungarian Socialist Party
00:33:44 had shrunk up and it became clear
that there was a power vacuum here,
00:33:52 that the country had to
remain manageable and we behaved
00:33:57 accordingly towards the government.
We had a bitter struggle with
this government, for example,
00:34:03 in connection with the wiretap
scandal, the scandal in the Ministry of the Interior.
We have attacked this
00:34:08 government in many other cases,
in privatisation matters, and so on,
00:34:14 but we have always consistently
abstained from attacking
its unpopular actions only
00:34:19 because they have been unpopular.
We won't
00:34:25 call people on the streets just
because the governmet's actions are unpopular.
00:34:33 - I am in a very difficult situation,
because János Kiss has given such
00:34:39 an attitude to the opposition role,
he has given a plea for opposition
00:34:46 policy as if he was preparing to be
an opposition here in the Parliament.
- No, no, not like that,
00:34:53 I don't know where we will be.
I'm sorry, you've made the option of forming
the opposition so attractive that, so I'm in the
00:35:00 mood for being an opposition.
- Excuse me, can you imagine?
Can you imagine the situation
00:35:06 after the election?
- Any parties may find themselves
00:35:10 in opposition.
But that will be decided by
the electorate on Sunday.
00:35:20 Now, to be serious,
I think that in democracy it is indeed
00:35:26 a prerequisite for its functioning,
and we have said this
many times these days,
00:35:34 and I have said it myself
when it comes to coalition or not
00:35:41 coalition, we are sure that
the major parties agree that it is prerequisite
00:35:48 in Hungarian democracy
that there should always
00:35:53 be a opposition with the capability of governing,
so that a Guvernemental-minded
opposition should be formed.
00:36:00 I agree that there is no real
political democracy where a mass party
00:36:06 is formed, and then the other party
is always out of the question.
00:36:12 We need oppositional parties with
a real chance of gaining power,
00:36:18 and in the history of Hungarian politics,
I realised it as a historian myself, it was
a tragic year when
00:36:25 Kálmán Tisza united the two parties,
because in Hungary there had been
00:36:31 conditions for bipolar politics,
and after 1875 there was a bad reflex:
00:36:38 a large mass party forming the government
and an opposition without any chance of doing the same,
00:36:45 which necessarily leads them in an
unproductive and aimless direction.
00:36:51 The so-called united party in the Horthy era
was also a major political failure,
00:36:56 besides which the smaller parties came
to existence having no chance of forming
a government, as mentioned above already.
00:37:03 So we agree, I think
that it is very important that
00:37:08 in political life, in the Parliament
the conditions of a political system with
alternating governing parties should indeed be created,
00:37:15 and that is why the free democrats called
a possible coalition, which we accepted,
a forced marriage,
00:37:22 but I would not like to
get into details about it right now.
00:37:29 - I'd like to.
- Okay, but in the meantime,
00:37:34 I agree with this that
it is very important.
00:37:39 I also consider it one of
the conditions for the development
00:37:46 of a real democracy that the
rules of parliamentary democracy,
00:37:52 legality and so on
must be linked to
00:37:59 a very good municipal system.
So democracy can only be
00:38:05 imagined as a true democracy,
if the municipalities really
live alongside central government,
00:38:13 and therefore it will be incredibly
important that the number of
00:38:19 elected people in the entire
administrative apparatus in Hungary
00:38:25 really be replaced also in
the municipal elections, so that
00:38:30 people can feel there again, too,
to have choosen people in whom they have confidence.
00:38:38 I agree that the press is one
of the power pillars of democracy,
00:38:46 not in the Montesquieuian sense,
but still, and I would
00:38:53 like to point out that there is,
however, a fundamental element to this,
00:39:01 that true political democracy can
only function where parliamentary
00:39:07 democracy relies on a broad, wealthy middle class.
00:39:12 And that is what we must strive for
00:39:17 - not in the old official sense of ’civil servants’
- but through the peasantry,
the skilled workers,
00:39:23 a very broad middle class that we
see in every functioning democracy
00:39:28 because it can only be built on
such a base. Where there
00:39:33 is desperate poverty in its masses,
political democracy cannot really
be built sustained. So this is the
00:39:41 social reasoning behind this
and there can only be a functioning
political democracy where we also
00:39:48 create the conditions for it.
So I think that this
should also be pursued
00:39:55 and with such a policy, with the
establishment of such a government so that
00:40:01 we can move forward in this direction.
- There's a lot of places to start.
00:40:08 Of course I'd like to talk about
the coalition, but let me ask you
00:40:11 something about what you have just said.
Are there real ideas in the
00:40:15 economic policy of the Democratic
Forum on how to stop the spiralling
00:40:20 poverty and doing so very quickly
00:40:25 and how to help the so-called middle
class of Hungarian society to make a living?
00:40:31 - Yeah, well, we included the
concept of a social market
00:40:39 economy in our party manifesto
and in the section of it,
00:40:46 just like the party manifesto
of Christian Democratic parties do.
00:40:53 Here, I would like to mention,
without sharpening the debate between
us, that I was surprised to hear
00:41:01 from Tamás Baj in the previous
programme that the Alliance of Free
00:41:07 Democrats is now using the concept
of a social market economy as well.
00:41:13 A few weeks ago,
his experts appreciated this
00:41:17 differently, but, of course,
we do not have to own the concept,
00:41:23 this development can only be welcomed.
Would you allow János Kiss to respond
at this point? Then you can continue.
00:41:29 - Of course.
- I think that it is not the use
of words that is interesting but the fact that,
00:41:36 when we compare the social policy
part of the Democratic Forum party manifesto
00:41:41 with the social policy part of
the Free Democrats party manifesto, we find
00:41:46 that the Free Democrat's manifesto is
closer to what we call a social
00:41:51 market economy in Western Europe.
It contains the type of social safety
00:41:58 net and safety net that the state,
society, as a community,
00:42:05 must provide to those who are unable
to operate on the market, who are
00:42:14 temporarily or permanently lost.
If I have understood the
00:42:20 Democratic Forum party manifesto well,
there are mainly measures,
00:42:25 social policy measures, which help
owners and those already employed,
00:42:31 tax incentives and the like.
The social market economy,
00:42:35 in my opinion, is not like that.
There's something else I'd like
to add to that, but I can see
00:42:39 that you want to return the microphone back.
- Well, I'd love to,
because I actually think it was
00:42:42 only fair let you react
because I saw you wanted to
but Mr Antall had the floor
00:42:46 so I think he should be able to continue.
- I don't think that's what this
is about. That is not what
00:42:51 a social market economy means.
A social market economy is
00:42:57 indeed a market economy,
a broader market mechanism,
00:43:03 which takes account of
all social interests.
Social policy and social networks,
00:43:10 of course, are involved in everything,
because I do not want to go into
00:43:16 theoretical discussions right now.
The interesting thing about the
00:43:20 development of the last decades is
the development of social democracy in
00:43:26 the direction of a market economy,
maintaining the social network,
and indeed, today liberalism is
00:43:33 integrating the social element into
its system, and, of course we have to mention
the Christian Democratic trends
00:43:40 where this is even more pronounced.
I think there are two different
00:43:46 things going on here.
One is that social policy,
00:43:49 the best social policy,
is always the best economic policy.
Economic policy
00:43:55 which can create jobs,
boosts economic life
00:44:02 and does so by creating as
many jobs as possible, etc.
00:44:10 makes the class that the social
net has to support and
00:44:18 that constitutes the desolate group smaller.
However, this does not mean,
00:44:25 of course, that, while employing
economic measures there aren’t going to
be those to whom the economy is
00:44:32 unable to offer opportunities
and so public intervention must
00:44:37 also be ensured in the development
of a proper social policy and
00:44:43 all other available means.
I think that it follows from
the whole spirit of the Hungarian
00:44:51 Democratic Forum and the whole idea
of it that it places a great deal
00:44:57 of weight on social aspects and on
the development of the social system.
00:45:04 We believe that in economic
life it is extremely important
00:45:09 to develop small and medium-sized
enterprises and create new jobs,
00:45:14 so to reduce the number
of people who are impoverished
by restructuring the economic
00:45:21 system as much as possible.
The less the social net
has to support, the better. Of course,
00:45:30 the next step of this with regards
to ensure that those who fall
00:45:41 out of this system of production
at such a transformation are able
00:45:50 to integrate as soon as possible
with appropriate retraining.
00:45:58 - I think, back to your question,
that no one here can seriously
00:46:05 hope that in the coming years there
will be such a rapid improvement,
00:46:11 even in the case of the best economic
policy, -that a very wide
00:46:18 array of the heavy burdens that
have already been borne and which
00:46:24 will still have to be borne could be spared.
For example, it is obvious that
00:46:29 an honest party cannot claim that
unemployment in Hungary will not
00:46:34 increase in the coming years.
I think that anyone who
00:46:38 comes to government in Hungary,
whether they pursue good economic
00:46:43 policy or bad economic policy,
has to admit that unemployment will temporarily increase.
the governing party pursues a good
00:46:50 anti-inflationary policy or clumsy
one, and inflation will be reduced
00:46:55 to 3-4 percent in a short time.
I think that this will lead
00:47:01 to a very important lesson for
the future of Hungarian democracy.
It will also be very difficult
00:47:08 for the government with the widest
base to obtain social support,
to obtain wide-ranging social support
00:47:15 for a policy that will bring
only suffering for a very large part
00:47:21 of the people in the short term,
all the more so, because the
00:47:26 work of the previous communist government,
which has now been promising to
improve for more than a decade,
00:47:33 has been giving rise to deterioration
in living conditions. I believe that,
under these circumstances,
00:47:39 there is an extremely important
additional condition for the
consolidation of democracy,
00:47:44 and that is the creation of
strong independent trade unions.
In order to allow workers
00:47:52 or those temporarily excluded
from the workplace to accept
00:47:57 the coercive measures that the
government will inevitably take,
00:48:03 it is necessary for them not
to experience them as actions
00:48:09 taken by aliens over their heads,
but to negotiate them with
00:48:16 their own true representatives.
This requires strong,
bottom-up trade unions, and one of the
00:48:22 first things that the Alliance of Free
Democrats will have to do, whether it
00:48:27 becomes part of the governing party
or the majority of the government,
or it will be in the opposition,
00:48:34 which we have announced earlier,
is to start a fight against the
state trade unions that are filling
00:48:41 its trade union space today and
to help the formation of independent,
bottom-up trade unions.
00:48:46 I'd like to remind you that we have
about ten minutes left, so we should
definitely talk about a few things.
00:48:52 - Let me have some remarks here.
I agree, of course,
with the role of trade unions,
00:49:02 and the whole liberal state
and any version of it, i.e.
00:49:09 a democratic state,
a liberal rule of law, and a society
00:49:16 can only function in balance.
And the basis for this balance is
00:49:23 the right trade union movement.
I see that the independent trade
00:49:28 union movements in Hungary have
not yet been able to break
through and take their place.
00:49:36 For the time being,
the protection of the interests
of the workers is unsolved,
00:49:43 and the protection of the large masses
of the working society is unsolved.
00:49:50 On one side, trade unions have not
yet been transformed, but no one
00:49:56 can expect them to fall apart
as they are also linked to
00:50:02 certain interest systems through
various preferences and others, i.e.
the re-election of workers from
00:50:09 the bottom and the transformation
of them into certain, more specialised
trade unions should be the way.
00:50:16 The other thing is that independent
trade unions have actually
had difficulty breaking through
00:50:22 intellectually employed circles,
and the third is the existence
of workers' councils, of course,
00:50:28 and it is very important to
stress that no self-director,
Yugoslav model can be imagined,
00:50:35 but it can only be said that
during the transitional period,
00:50:40 until a healthy trade
union movement is formed, the
controlling role of these workers’ councils
00:50:47 could be important in employment protection
or even the workers’ interests’s protection.
00:50:52 From these three elements,
the future new Hungarian trade union
movement must be built, without
00:50:59 which there will be no democracy.
- So you get the impression,
00:51:04 at least I don't know what else it is,
of course, that it's a tired country.
00:51:11 The electoral struggle,
sometimes the runaway emotions,
sometimes the difficulties of living,
00:51:17 in many people suppress the
greatness of the process.
00:51:22 And there's no sign of the process.
- A moody revolution.
00:51:25 - That's one way to put it.
A lot of foreigners wonder why
00:51:29 we're not more enthusiastic.
- Yes, but I think that for a long
time, those who think in parties and
00:51:35 Parliament have been concerned
that there will be too many small
parties in the Hungarian Parliament.
00:51:41 This concern has proved to be
unfounded on the basis of the
current situation. However,
00:51:46 many of our viewers are asking,
and this question here tonight
is inevitable, however pointless,
00:51:52 however hard it is to expect to be
answered with the utmost honesty.
00:51:58 Many of our viewers are wondering
if you are willing to make
00:52:04 a coalition with each other.
This would be the so-called great
coalition. Decency dictates that
00:52:10 - I beg your pardon - the reason I have
to ask you now is because you won
the first round of the elections.
00:52:17 - First of all,
I'd like to say,
00:52:24 what is the result of the previous...
we believe that Hungary and the
00:52:34 interests of Hungarian democracy
would be that these two parties,
00:52:40 which are currently the largest
two parties, should not be
00:52:46 the coalition partner after the
first round of the elections.
00:52:52 Simply as a result of the aforementioned
discussion of the need for a
00:52:57 governing party and the need for
a government's capable opposition.
00:53:03 So, according to the basic
rules of democracy and the basic
00:53:09 rules of well-functioning democracy,
the interests of the country are,
00:53:13 of course, clearly always the
same in normal circumstances.
00:53:19 The next question is that in our view
00:53:25 in the coalition it is appropriate
to be side by side with coalition
00:53:35 partners who are closer to each
other in political thinking, party
00:53:44 manifestos and closer alliances.
We have now only made a nationwide
00:53:51 electoral alliance with Independent Small Shareholders’ Party
and the Christian Democratic People's Party.
00:53:57 In principle,
we believe that if this electoral
00:54:02 alliance were to receive a majority
that would make it fit to govern,
00:54:09 it would be in the best
interests of the country
00:54:17 to have such a government or representative.
- For a moment, what percentage
00:54:23 to hold do you consider being fit to govern?
Well, it's obvious that there's
only one absolute majority involved.
00:54:30 - Of course, but to what degree.
- The question is that
00:54:35 today's Hungarian constitution is created in such a way
00:54:41 - and Parliament finally accepted
that laws are constitutional laws -
that way too many laws require a two-thirds
00:54:49 majority, and that is independent of
00:54:55 our relationship with each other.
I believe that if we cannot change
00:55:01 that, Hungary will become ungovernable.
00:55:08 It will become out of control,
because it is currently extending
00:55:14 the need for a two-thirds
majority to such a wide circle,
00:55:20 - and I am thinking here of the
resolutions of the last period and
00:55:26 of the Constitutional Court - that
regardless of which one of us would be in government,
00:55:32 it should be amended so that
it is indeed only the constitution
00:55:39 which requires a two-thirds majority.
- So, if I understand correctly,
counting on the cooperation of the
00:55:46 future opposition in this particular
vote, you think that if you can
change that, for some votes
00:55:52 you need a two-thirds majority
then in that case you do not
consider it essential to have 66.7 percent.
00:55:57 - That's exactly right.
As in a normal country,
00:56:01 they do not require 60 percent
or two thirds of the majority
00:56:08 for parliamentary governance,
but they are usually fifty-something percent
00:56:12 - and now within Parliament, of course,
with the distribution of mandates -
00:56:18 they are able to govern.
There are two
00:56:25 possibilities in Hungary where the
coalition of these two political
00:56:31 parties, namely our parties,
becomes necessary, one is a stalemate,
00:56:38 when the power structure of the two
parties simply form in such a way, this is one.
00:56:47 The other is when a crisis
occurs in the country and so
00:56:53 with responsibility in mind, both parties
judge the situation to be such that
00:56:59 in order to save democracy,
a grand coalition
00:57:08 should be formed.
But such a great coalition can only
00:57:14 exist for a short period of time,
and always only to deal with a crisis,
00:57:21 because there are plenty bad of
examples for that. In West Germany
the Social Democrat- Christian
00:57:28 Democrat coalition generally does not work
very well with such parties.
00:57:33 If such a situation occurs
- and the Democratic Forum has
never ruled it out,
00:57:39 and we have always clearly said that,
even before the elections,
00:57:44 we do not rule out a coalition -
there are political parties that are
00:57:50 closer to us and with which we
would prefer to form a coalition,
00:57:56 and I think I have given a pretty
good reason, together with János Kiss,
00:58:03 why we consider this to be better,
but in such crisis and in such a
00:58:10 situation, it cannot be ruled out.
Of course, this has its consequences,
00:58:16 and the consequences must be
drawn so that the personal
composition of such a difficult,
00:58:23 large coalition government must always
be such that it can be made
00:58:29 up of people who can cooperate.
I'd like to tell you that the
viewers may be hearing that he's
00:58:36 going down in the studio, but this
has nothing to do with the show.
I’ve just learnt the most about
00:58:42 this coalition from József Antall.
I don't know about you.
00:58:47 - I'm afraid that time is very
short now and that's why...
00:58:50 - Very.
- That's why I'm trying
to keep my words short.
00:58:55 First of all, I need to make a quick
comment on electoral cooperation.
00:59:03 This comment is that a large
number of county organizations of the
Independent Smallholders' Party,
00:59:09 made alliances not with the Democratic Forum,
but with the Free Democrats and,
00:59:15 as far as I know, the party's
leadership has also taken note of this.
But I'll keep that in parentheses.
00:59:21 - The Political Committee
meeting was today.
- That's why I only keep this
00:59:25 in parentheses in parentheses,
because that's not really
what I'd like to comment on.
00:59:29 Our position is that in the
extremely uncertain situation in which
the Hungarian political situation,
00:59:36 which is in Hungary today
and in which it cannot be ruled out,
00:59:41 although it is not certain either that
the Democratic Forum and the Alliance
00:59:46 of Free Democrats cannot form
a government without each other,
and in which this eventuality is
00:59:53 of great concern to the public,
the responsible political party
must say clearly that,
01:00:00 if it is necessary for the
establishment of a sound government,
it is willing to cooperate with the
01:00:07 other, to form a common government.
We have already said this at the
01:00:13 beginning of the election campaign,
even though we were
01:00:18 aware that our main electoral rival
was the Democratic Forum. That's it.
01:00:23 And if I had one more minute.
- Wait a minute.
- We've never said anything else.
01:00:30 - If I had one more minute,
let me turn back to the
beginning of this conversation.
01:00:37 I would like to say once again that
I think it is extremely important
01:00:43 for voters in Sunday elections
to be aware that they shouldn’t read any
01:00:49 slanderous pamphlet,
that they should not care about them,
01:00:55 that they should throw them aside
and that they should only vote
01:01:00 on the basis of what they have
directly learned about the candidates
01:01:05 - whatever they know directly about
the political parties concerned.
In addition, I would like to
01:01:12 say that in several constituencies
there was a pamphlet that said
that x candidates or y candidates,
01:01:18 such as Bálint Magyar,
the candidate of the Free Democrats,
should not be elected in Zuglo,
01:01:23 because he will be included
on the national list anyway.
I would like to draw the voters'
01:01:30 attention to the fact that they
should not care about such pamphlets,
01:01:34 because if they do not elect
Bálint Magyar on this basis,
another Free Democrat will be
01:01:40 hindered from accessing Parliament.
What I ask of all voters is
01:01:44 that you don't care about anything
other than what you've learned
directly about candidates, parties,
01:01:51 don't worry about such pamphlets.
Thank you.
01:01:55 - Can I say something neutral?
- Of course.
01:01:57 - Not just neutral.
- I would like to say that,
01:02:01 in the interests of Hungarian
democracy and of Hungary,
01:02:06 we ask that as many people
as possible go and vote.
01:02:11 Citizens should feel that on 8 April it is very
important that every Hungarian voter
01:02:17 who can do so should go
and vote according to his/her conscience.
01:02:23 This is in the common interest
of all of us, and this is the
fundamental goal of the Hungarian
01:02:30 future and Hungarian democracy.
And I think that all political
parties should agree on that.
01:02:36 There's one last question,
but I don't know if it's really
important what you have to say.
01:02:39 - Please, go ahead.
01:02:45 According to the polls,
a lot of people have not decided
01:02:49 until now who to vote for in
the second round of elections.
01:02:54 The last question is,
what do you want to say to voters
01:02:59 who may not yet be in favour of your party
and who you don't know who to vote for?
01:03:05 They're still weighing,
still thinking. Now, if you like,
there's an opportunity to put
01:03:11 it in terms of what you think
is the greatest attraction,
or the greatest virtue of your party,
01:03:17 or in which your party is most
distinct from the party of your
other party. Before the show,
01:03:24 we decided by drawing lots that
the last question would be
01:03:29 answered first by József Antall.
- I think that for those voters
01:03:34 who have not yet decided,
or who have already voted,
01:03:40 I can only say that the Hungarian
Democratic Forum wants to be
01:03:47 a European political parliamentary
party, and that is how it works now,
01:03:53 and that is how it intends to
continue to operate in the future -
01:04:01 it is a party which seeks
to enforce the sense of security,
01:04:05 expertise and human
and civil rights in all respects.
01:04:15 - The Alliance of Free Democrats was
a stalwart opponent of the party state,
01:04:21 and it will be relentlessly fighting
for the removal of the last remnants of that system.
01:04:27 Those who are concerned that the
local power of the party state
remains intact, that the
01:04:34 Hungarian Socialist Party has still
not been cleared of its assets:
01:04:38 you can be sure that the
Alliance of Free Democrats will do
01:04:44 everything in its power to ensure
that the ruling party disappears
and that the Hungarian Socialist
01:04:51 Party and its co-operatives are
accounted for with their assets,
and that this property will
01:04:58 return to its rightful owner,
the Hungarian people.
At the same time,
01:05:04 the Alliance of Free Democrats
in the area of regime change
was determined and consistent,
01:05:11 it was flexible and compromiseable and
will be tooso as to establish a
01:05:18 strong government,
whether it will be part of
the majority of the government,
01:05:24 or it will sit in the
benches of the opposition.
01:05:30 - Thank you for this gentle
and peaceful conversation, which
reflects the pronounced differences
01:05:37 of opinion and disagreements,
and I wish both of you and
01:05:42 your party good luck on Sunday.
Let me also draw your attention tot he fact that the last
01:05:48 90-minute debate on TV1 before the
election be held on Friday 6 April,
01:05:54 the day after tomorrow.
The participants are the leading
figures of the six parliamentary
01:06:00 parties, the themes, democracy,
the future, parliamentarism,
and what will be added on
01:06:06 the basis of the questions -
you can phone in with your questions on Friday
between 8:00 and 16:00
01:06:12 on the number 131-79-97. Thank you again.
Thank you for your attention. Goodbye.
01:06:23 - Thank you, too.
208 00:20:53,760 --> 00:21:00,860
and many people may have - felt,
reflecting a a widely shared view in the public that
we in the opposition are against each other or
228 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:09,740
I am one of its Vice-Presidents,
but we have also been in contac with the European Community
98 00:09:51,820 --> 00:09:58,200
but we are specifically
European political parties,
we want European political standards,
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